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Tesla Model Y overtakes Corolla to be world's best-selling car in 2023

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Posted on Friday, May 26th 2023 by rippercushions


240 of 606 comments

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@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by basisword

I don't get this to be honest. Had a couple of experiences as a passenger and now I actively avoid them (on Uber). The ride is absolutely awful. So rigid. Every bump on the road is felt, to the point I felt nauseated. They're spacious, and maybe they're nice to drive? But if I bought this without test driving it first, I would return it.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by ajross | Parent

I bought one and it's the most fun I've had in a vehicle in my almost four decades of driving. Not going to tell you what to like, but your opinions are definitely an outlier.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by toomuchtodo | Parent

Latest suspension is really good. We have one, would never sell it. Upgraded the suspension myself from 2021 build to the latest rev for $600.

Edit: Ref: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/12c49ir/_/jf2k...

Have Tesla Service confirm parts to your VIN/vehicle model (LR vs Performance).


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by cco | Parent

How'd you do that if you don't mind me asking? Is there a kit?


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by xenadu02 | Parent

Some people (like myself) prefer a sporty ride.

They're really fun to drive. I own one and don't regret it. Obviously no car will appeal to everyone but clearly Tesla has a market despite the nay-sayers.

edit: The purchase experience beats traditional car makers hands down. No high pressure sales tactics or scams like rust preventer.

Nay-sayers also under-rate Tesla's mobile service. Go into the app, create a ticket, attach pictures. Get an estimate within hours (sometimes minutes). Accept, schedule. Tech comes to your house with all the parts and tools. Super easy.

Not much to maintain... motor coolant (ATF), coolant system, etc are lifetime sealed. Brakes last forever thanks to regen. Basically replace air filters every 3-4 years and tires per normal... which can also be done by mobile service.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by jacurtis | Parent

I love when people say this. Because it tells me that they have never actually driven a sports car before.

When tesla owners say "sporty" they mean acceleration. Yes Teslas have mad acceleration. Not disputing that. But thats not a sporty drive. If anything thats more what you would get from a muscle car, which offers pure torque at the cost of basically everything else, which is what Tesla offers. Tesla isn't a sports car, it is a muscle car trapped in a sports car body.

Drive a Porsche, or Mercedes (C or S classes, the A classes are a joke), or BMW. These give you a sports drive. Smooth suspension, finely tuned transmission shifts, snappy steering, etc. These traits make up sporty drives. While power plays a component in that, it's not pure torque.

I realize that Tesla doesn't have a transmission before someone spits that out to me. But look at the electric Porsches and BMWs who mimick a transmission range to give you that, it isn't just a linear line like a Tesla. That's the difference between a mechanical drive and an emotional one. This is also why neither of these company's current offerings can beat out Tesla in 0-60 time. They could come close or beat it if they wanted to, but their clientele isn't looking for that, they want a traditional shift and acceleration so they offer that instead.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by alphabettsy | Parent

They've got some work to do in the suspension tuning department. They should take notes from BMW and the 3-series. That's how you do a sport ride that's still comfortable.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by RadixDLT | Parent

corvette C8 for those who cant afford a Ferrari


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nluken | Parent

You're not going to get a sporty ride from a model Y. Or any SUV really, as much as Tesla, BMW, and every other luxury SUV maker would have you believe. These vehicles are simply too tall for that. It's a tradeoff for which you get practical benefits in return.

That said car enthusiast types were never Tesla's target market post-Roadster and they've excelled at building a product the public likes for other reasons as you've mentioned.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by hesdeadjim | Parent

Big fan of my Y, but you aren't kidding, the suspension is truly awful when you compare it to something in the same price category like an X3.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by jacurtis | Parent

The quality of Tesla vehicles are objectively terrible. I had looked at purchasing one 4-5 years ago when they were all the hype and I walked away from the test drive dissapointed.

Yes you push the pedal and it go fast. Everyone with a Tesla loves to show that off that and I can't dispute it. But the actual ride quality is (or at least was) truly horrible. Terrible road noise and suspension that bottoms out and rebounds aggressively. This doesn't even address the countless concerns people have raised of build quality (like badly placed body panels, weatherstripping coming loose, bad locks, etc..

It really shocks me that people were buying Mercedes level prices for a car that was built worse than budget brands. Yes you got a sexy big screen (before that was common) and it had all the cool 360 cameras (before those were common), and it had the promise (more like an "IoU") for self-driving.

It is funny because I bought a new BMW and saved money. The beamer was a budget choice by comparison (by tens of thousands of dollars). Really happy I went that route after watching the next 5 years play out.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by toomuchtodo | Parent

If the global auto market outcome doesn't send strong signal, I don't know what does. Consumers are willing to overlook what you mention for status and experience. This should be no surprise, as a vehicle purchase is highly emotional. If you build a sexy brand, people will buy your brand. "S3XY". Tesla spent two decades ramping manufacturing, a global fast DC charge networks, and the mentioned brand. It's simply paying dividends now.

Disclosure: Early TSLA investor, no current exposure


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by jeffbee | Parent

It's a big seller and it's impossible to argue with that. But I also fail to see their niche. You're a big spender and you want everyone to know it? Lucid. You want the ultimate in efficiency? Hyundai Ioniq is as good as the Y. Don't have much money? Fiat 500e.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by xenadu02 | Parent

And my E46 M3 had interior door trim with glue that melted in the sun and fell off. Oh and the crankshaft bearings ate themselves and grenaded the engine at highway speed (the dealer charged BMW $14k just for the engine on that warranty repair).

Or my wife's Audi where the black coating on all the interior plastic scrunched up and peeled off. And that same car had a CVT transmission with so many failures Audi actually paid off repairs via a class action lawsuit (I got a check for around $4k! first and only time a class action actually benefitted me and not the lawyers). Oh and the defective Bosch ignition coils that caused misfires.

For what it is worth my Model Y (Dec 21) doesn't have odd panel gaps or other problems. It has extremely minimal maintenance requirements. I don't care about the price of gas or even electricity because my solar panels charge it for free. And it is fun to drive.

Not everyone will like the ride, the features, or whatever else... but they are selling every single one that rolls off the fully-booked production line.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by addisonl | Parent

Seats are soft but uncomfortable at the same time, almost impressive.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bryanlarsen | Parent

Tesla's have a BMW-like ride, with significant road feel. Drivers love it, passengers hate it. There's a reason that limo's use Mercedes', not BMW's.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by avgDev | Parent

Maybe a BMW from 1995. Current BMW are very well sorted while still offering great handling.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seanmcdirmid | Parent

My wife feels the same way about our new i4. I love it, she says the acceleration and regenerative breaking leads to a less comfortable ride. No bumps though, it is a BMW at least with a quiet interior. Not sure what kind of suspension tuning Teslas have.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by globular-toast | Parent

People buy stuff because of the brand. Literally nothing else matters for a large section of the market.

@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by jacurtis

I've heard some auto analysts suggesting that Tesla's trick to drop their car prices was not necessarily an act of desperation, as much as an action of opportunity. While all other car manufacturers are upping prices and increasing lead times, Tesla is taking advantage of this by having vehicles available and lowering prices in order to gain market-share in a time when other manufacturers are expecting and preparing for slower sales.

If that was the strategy, then it looks like it is working exactly as planned.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by miohtama | Parent

Also Ford, And likely others, are selling their EVs for loss


Of course this may change with the economics of scale, but looks like the scale is not there yet.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by gnicholas | Parent

To the extent that EVs last longer with very low maintenance costs, people will likely keep them even longer than they would keep other cars. And if Tesla can accelerate purchases of people who are considering getting an EV, they can drain the pool of potential EV buyers before other manufacturers are fully up and running.

As a result, other manufacturers will have to anticipate lower sales numbers, which means they would set higher prices (because much of the cost is in tooling and other fixed costs of production). It could create a nasty situation for other manufacturers, especially those that are not large enough spread the costs of EV manufacturing across other successful product lines.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by op00to | Parent

Why would EVs last longer?


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by jacurtis | Parent

Whether EVs last longer is yet to be seen. The batteries are a huge flaw in their ability to last long term. Replacing the batteries are likely a $10k+ cost, meaning that as cars get older it may not be worth doing. Imagine having a car worth $8k because it is 10 years old and needing to spend $10k on it to update the batteries. Would it make sense? Or would you just buy a car worth $18k instead?

People willing to drop that on a "repair" would probably rather buy upmarket instead. Which leaves a lot of older EVs driving around with potentially really poor ranges and clogging up charger networks.

We will have to see how it plays out. But they are lower maintenance.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by kitsunesoba | Parent

That would make a lot of sense to me.

I'm not quite ready to commit yet, but I've been looking into leasing an EV on and off for a while and availability is spotty for the more interesting models, and that's to say nothing of dealer markup.

Competing EVs have several things that depending on the driver make them more compelling than the options offered by Tesla, but I'd bet that a lot of people are willing to compromise if it means getting a car with the price and specs closer to what they're looking for now instead of weeks or months out.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by tempfortwitt90 | Parent

My gf wanted to buy a hybrid Toyota RAV4. Hard to find, little choice of incoming units, and they want $5k over MSRP.
She was very hesitant to get a full EV.
But now seeing how dealers want over MSRP on the RAV4... She's 95% sold on the Model 3.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by websap | Parent

Its not even a comparison when it comes to driving experience. I dislike how minimalist the interiors of Teslas are, but they are so fun to drive. The Model 3 especially!


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by 7e | Parent

Then why did Tesla jack up prices so much over the last few years? All part of the plan to gain market share?

Tesla inventory is at an all-time high. This seems a demand issue.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bryanlarsen | Parent

Does anybody sell more than 2 million >$70,000 vehicles a year? Tesla wants to sell 2 million cars this year and 3 million next year. The total market size for premium vehicles is only so big.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by symbolicAGI | Parent

Tesla raised prices in order to reduce the time between order and delivery when customer demand got too hot. Raising prices also improved profit margins during a time of rapid capital spending. Now customer demand has cooled with the international economic slowdown, and lowering prices increases the time between order and delivery as more customers are enticed to order.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by thechao | Parent

When my Kia went tits up I called every dealer I could (except Tesla) to try to get a car immediately. They all had months-long lead times. Tesla? I downloaded the app and bought the car as an in app purchase; 7 days later I picked up the car from the lot & left. If I'd been willing to settle for a white 7-seater, I'd've been able to pick it up same day.

What's the point of being a car dealer if you can't sell me a car!?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by itsoktocry | Parent

Interesting anecdote, but, uh, there were points where people were waiting for months to get their Tesla.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by twelve40 | Parent

I hate dealers as much as anyone else, but isn't that a supply problem, not a dealers problem? Also varying with time depending on supply and demand?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by itsoktocry | Parent

>While all other car manufacturers are upping prices and increasing lead times, Tesla is taking advantage of this by having vehicles available and lowering prices in order to gain market-share in a time when other manufacturers are expecting and preparing for slower sales.

Why does everyone think that everything Elon does is 4D chess?

Read the above back to yourself: The legacy autos are choosing to raise prices and lengthen lead times, while Tesla is choosing to lower prices and shorten lead times. It's that simple!

Do you think there's more to it than "choosing" to do these things?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kbos87 | Parent

Agree that vision based wipers are meh. I think it has something to do with the position of the front facing cameras behind the windshield; water seems to just hit that spot differently vs where you look out.

My experience with the vision based parking system so far has been great though. The experience is pretty much the same in the vehicle as it was with ultrasonic sensors. There is also a pile of YouTube videos where you can see people testing weird scenarios and checking the on-screen distance from objects with a tape measure. It's pretty solid.

@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by xnx

Seems a big part of this is Tesla's minimal and globally available product line (which I commend them for). Other automakers produce a huge number of variants within and between markets. That dilutes the sales of any single model.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by somethoughts | Parent

Yes this I think is the key difference - perhaps its a strategic move or perhaps some other reason (i.e. low relative volume) but the fact that most other automakers have upwards of 25+ SKUs versus 4 SKUs for Tesla.

In fact for Toyota there are some 15+ Toyota SKUs and 15+ Lexus SKUs - ranging in price from the Corolla (compact) to the Sienna (minivan) to the BRZ (youth sports car) to the BZ4X (CUV EV) to the LS500 (executive sedan) to the Landcruiser (guerrilla infantry vehicle).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bryanlarsen | Parent

For other car-makers they are bundling multiple SKU's. For example, the second place finisher is the Toyota Corolla/Levin/Allion/Lingshang which are all basically but not quite the same car.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sowbug | Parent

Most Tesla recalls are applied in owner driveways, while the owners are asleep, because they're software.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by 1letterunixname | Parent

Probably Norway and other places where government subsidies make it an easy decision to get a Tesla because it's affordable. The majority of US automotive buyers can't afford a basic model 3.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cloudwalking | Parent

Model 3 is available new for less than the average US vehicle price https://fortune.com/2023/02/21/tesla-model-3-sells-5000-less...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kcb | Parent

>The majority of US automotive buyers can't afford a basic model 3.

You say that in a country where three at least $40k+ full size pickups are the best selling models.

@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by wisnoskij

What is this article even talking about. I don't have to know a single thing about cars or their economics to know clearly some Chinese or Indian brand I have never heard of and could not pronounce if I had is outselling the Tesla by 1000 fold. I cannot even imagine how cheap you could make a car without all of our regulations, its probably like $250.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by woooooo | Parent

I think your cheapo Chinese/Indian EV is most likely classed as motorcycle.


@ Thursday, May 25th 2023 by wisnoskij | Parent

While the motorcycle brand probably outsells the car brand by 1000x, the Indian/chineses market is big enough to also have a car model that sells millions upon millions of units.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bryanlarsen | Parent

The Wuling Mini is the best selling car in China in 2022, selling a half million cars to the model Y's 300,000. In Q1 2023, the model Y outsold the Wuling Mini.

BYD handily outsells Tesla in China, but it is split among something like 40 different models vs Tesla's 4.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seanmcdirmid | Parent

Whoa. The Wuling mini is like 4,800 USD to 4,400 USD, while the Model Y is $48,447. That Tesla is selling only 300k Model Y's vs 500k Wuling Minis is actually pretty good.

I've ridden in a BYD EV taxi before back in 2016, I haven't lived in China since then. It was OK. BYD should have a larger market share than Tesla in China, it would be weird otherwise.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cheeze

As a cyclist, there isn't any car on the road that scares me more than these. The drivers are worse than aggressive truck drivers.

Given that it's the best selling car, maybe it's just that people are generally horrible at driving? At least in my area the drivers of these seem an order of magnitude more clueless than any others.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by artursapek | Parent

it's because Tesla drivers know the AI will save them from making any mistakes /s


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by anonporridge | Parent

I have heard second hand accounts from friends who have been hit by Teslas whose drivers tried to claim innocence because they were convinced their car would definitely have told them if they hit something and it didn't.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jackmott42 | Parent

As a cyclist, I haven't noticed anything like that. I suspect some internal bias towards EVs or against Elon or something is making you notice a pattern that isn't there.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by skellington | Parent

Tesla drivers statistically have significantly less accidents than other vehicles. So, by the data, they can't be worse than other drivers.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dazc | Parent

It may be just a UK thing but I find Tesla drivers the least aggressive of all expensive car drivers.

If I see a Range Rover, Mercedes, Audi, BMW or any large pick-up in my rear view mirror I expect to be aggressively tailgated and I'm generally correct. This has not happened to me with a Tesla, that I can recall.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sen | Parent

Purely anecdata but I spend a lot of time walking and cycling, and I couldn't agree with you more. Tesla Y/3 drivers are up there with BMW (higher end newer model) drivers as the most arrogant and oblivious drivers on the road. It's actually kind of impressive how those cars have so many driver aids, yet they still manage to drive like drunk 16yr old learners.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by blindriver | Parent

People said the same thing about the Prius when it was the most popular car.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by asdff | Parent

Except that prius took 10 seconds to go to 60mph and this tesla takes 3. Lead foot + silent car + crazy fast 0-60 = people driving like a GTA game.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by anonporridge | Parent

It's interesting because there used to be a similar cliche about Prius drivers being terrible when they were a new sensation.

Maybe there's something about people who are first adopters of "environmentally friendly" cars feeling a sense of moral license, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing, and end up being less conscientious on the road as a result.

Or maybe the rest of us just notice these bad drivers more because the cars stick out on the road as new and unusual.

Or maybe the drivers tend to just be rich, distracted assholes.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ashtonbaker | Parent

It's definitely related to the moral license thing in my opinion. As a cyclist there are a lot of bad drivers out there, but I've learned to treat every Tesla like I do lifted trucks. I think they feel that they are at the top of the moral hierarchy and forget about pedestrians and cyclists completely.

Not all of them, obviously, but enough.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bsder | Parent

The main irritant about initial Prius drivers was that they were a pain in the ass for going so goddamn slow--a LOT of them were "hypermiling".

This is different from the Tesla drivers who think that their acceleration always lets them cut in front of people.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by simondotau | Parent

Or maybe drivers are like that exist in similar amounts across brands and models, but human nature means we only think to attach a driver's behaviour to the brand/class of vehicle when we're primed to do so.

I've noticed that with taxis. In my city, taxi drivers have a reputation for driving like arseholes. I thought this too, but I started paying more attention and I realised that the vast majority of taxi drivers were driving entirely unremarkably. Before when I saw something which confirmed a prejudice, I thought it was more evidence in favour of that prejudice; now I realise that it was the Texas sharpshooter fallacy all along.

It seems to be true for just about every prejudice I've ever been told about. BMW drivers use their indicators just as often as anyone else. Owners of cheap Toyotas are just as likely to drive unreasonably fast as owners of high powered sports cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ck2 | Parent

I've often wished there was some kind of tiny beacon cyclists and pedestrians could carry to electronically alert those kinds of cars/drivers.

Yeah it's incorrectly shifting the responsibility to the victim but at this point whatever prevents injury/death/stress.

The problem is it would be abused to trick drivers.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by wilg | Parent

No need, the cars already see cyclists and pedestrians and have emergency braking. A transponder system is just a worse version of the existing solution.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by asdff | Parent

Big fast car with an automatic transmission is a recipe for you getting forced out of your lane by someone in over 5000lbs of metal who thinks their time is more important than considering your life by changing lanes to pass. O-60 entirely silently in 3 seconds, you won't even realize you are going fast enough to kill someone instantly.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by soperj | Parent

They're definitely not silent at 60.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nawgz | Parent

People are generally horrible at driving. But then giving them a big, fast SUV with absurd levels of acceleration available is a horrible choice, and so hearing that this is the best seller should definitely strike fear into our hearts.

Corollas are tiny and like a relic of a bygone era. These new vehicles shouldn't be more agile on top of being way bigger.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by a1371 | Parent

I have noticed this too and I feel it's because of the higher acceleration. It may give the drivers the feeling that they can insert themselves in even closer encounters because the car is more responsive.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mertd | Parent

Ever notice how some minivan drivers go way too fast for the size of their vehicle? Some think it is because the good forward visibility gives the drivers too much confidence. 3 and Y may have the same good visibility "problem" due to the sloping hood and the non existing dashboard.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by KerrAvon | Parent

Yeah, but the spontaneous battery fires really help light the way at night in areas where the streetlights are poor.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by influxmoment | Parent

Maybe watch less sensational news and go outside more. I wouldn't feel so immune in your combustion car. You know what combustion means? You'd be surprised to know they also combust unexpectedly and on impact


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by doktorhladnjak | Parent

The car is a giant smartphone with a distracted driver


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Pxtl | Parent

Imho it's just culturally taken the place of the Beamer for the same kind of drivers.

You know, the old "despite its good brakes, the BMW will usually stop with a jerk".


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dzhiurgis | Parent

Given Tesla and truck hate Cybertruck is going to be ultimate. Lucky they are making it from a solid steel.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by renewiltord | Parent

I have a GoPro 360 and ride every day to work and back in SF. I curate my video afterwards for interesting scenes. Nothing notable about car makes. "Keep Tahoe Blue" Ancient Subaru? Signal free lane change into bike lane. G Wagon with no licence plate on the front? Signal free lane change into bike lane.

When I used to ride my motorcycle the vehicle that put me in the hospital was a Prius. Tesla Model S cars are wide and annoying to lane split against but the drivers are just drivers.

Ultimately, this appears to be purely a cultural thing. People want to say that someone else is not better than them. So they will find some way to attach some unlikeable attribute to them.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jillesvangurp | Parent

I cycle a lot in Berlin. My observation is that EVs are far safer to be around because the car will hit the breaks before the driver gets into any trouble. Big ICE cars on the other hand are the worst. SUVs are the worst. I constantly get cut off by obnoxious drivers aggressively driving from traffic light to traffic light, cutting off people, breaking the speed limit, running red lights, double parking, or slamming their door in your face because they can't bothered to look around then. German traffic rule enforcement is very hands off so there is a lot of this going on. I deal with this on a daily basis.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by globular-toast | Parent

I stopped cycling a few years ago. It just isn't fun or safe any more. It's been getting worse and worse. I would go out and literally every single ride would involve a near-death experience.

Cars were a huge mistake.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by georgeburdell | Parent

No, white Tesla Model Y/3 (the paint color that doesn't cost extra) seem to occupy the same jerk driver niche that the BMW 3-series used to own. Lots of young, single men stretching their wallets for one.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by drc500free | Parent

Totally agreed, in the last 5 years or so it feels like mediocre drivers have switched from white entry-level BMW drivers to white Teslas. It's definitely hit the mass market of somewhat-well-off people rather than just tech bros who like the technology.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by wilg | Parent

I'm here to point out white is the safest color for a car.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by llsf | Parent

I own a white model 3, I am not young or single, but I see how it could be judged that way. Well, I wish you could try one and enjoy the ride, because it is a well made vehicle, regardless of the clichés attached to the car.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by justrealist | Parent

>don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla

I truly beg you to talk to an actual Tesla owner to refine your opinions.

EVs are practically 0-maintenance machines. Unless you need to change your tires... you just don't think about oil changes or motor belts breaking or engine filters clogging and all the other nonsense that breaks in an ICE car.

If you hate Tesla that's a completely valid opinion, but don't pretend that people are buying Teslas just to spite themselves... the user experience is, for the vast majority of people, simply great.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jerrysievert | Parent

huh, I read that in a completely different way than you. my brain inserted an Oxford comma:

>don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla


>don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car, or a Tesla

since the addition of the article "a" seemed to change the meaning. had it been

>don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or Tesla

it would have conveyed even different meaning to me.

I'm kind of curious what the GP's post actually meant at this point.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by borissk | Parent

FWIW I've been driving German cars my whole life and never had one break. Never had to think about motor belts or engine filters - just visit a garage for planned maintenance every year or whatever miles the manual states.

Tesla are an amazing company, that made EVs mainstream, but I'm never going to buy one. They don't know what the word "privacy" means.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Shekelphile | Parent

>EVs are practically 0-maintenance machines. Unless you need to change your tires... you just don't think about oil changes or motor belts breaking or engine filters clogging and all the other nonsense that breaks in an ICE car.

Until your AC fails in your s/x outside of warranty, or you get unlucky enough to have your Y's heat pump fall apart like thousands of people in cold climates have over the last few years. Both repairs are $5000+ and seem to happen much faster than similar issues in conventional vehicles with belt driven AC compressors.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Mawr | Parent

- "Tesla was both the least reliable but most popular EV brand in a survey of owners that found one in three of all EVs had major issues in the past year" [1]

- "Electric vehicles are less reliable than gas cars, according to a survey of UK drivers." [1]

- "Kia was the most reliable EV maker in the study, while Tesla was the least reliable." [1]

- "Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28" [2]

- "The Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems." [2]

[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-least-reliable-ev-bran...

[2]: https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reli...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by LeoPanthera | Parent

>I truly beg you to talk to an actual Tesla owner to refine your opinions.

Hi! I'm an actual Tesla owner. My Model X is approaching 3 years old.

It is the worst car I have ever owned. Almost everything that can break on it, has broken. I would care much less if Tesla would actually try to fix it when you take it in for service (as mine has been for a total of weeks), instead they lie and say things like "that's normal" when it clearly isn't.

I hate the car, I hate the service experience, and now, for a fun bonus extra, I hate Elon.

I will never buy another Tesla.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by rurp | Parent

A relative of mine has owned a Tesla for about three years which has spent more time inoperable than all of the ice cars I have owned combined. Teslas break in all sorts of ways and it can take months to get parts.

Maybe EVs will be longer lasting and lower maintenence on average in the long run, but we won't really know until the average EV age catches up with ICE cars.

Tesla's in particular are inordinately dependent on a single company for parts and repairs. That increases the risk of being able to easily maintain an older car in the future.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ChatGTP

Imagine if Toyota would've just made a simple, but nicely build electric car 3-5 years ago. Pretty foolish mistake.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by anonporridge | Parent

But hydrogen cars are the future! /s


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by _hypx | Parent

Hydrogen cars are the future. This is just another fad green movement in the car industry.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by umeshunni | Parent

They had a 10 year head start on EVs (well, Hybrids), with the Prius and blew it.

Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by adgjlsfhk1 | Parent

the Prius prime is a legitimately pretty great hybrid, but it took them a shocking long time to get there.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by shusaku | Parent

How much does this really matter? I feel like Tesla is strong in the market because they figured out how to market an EV as a sports car. Toyota was never going to do that.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by topkai22 | Parent

Even worse is they had multiple generations of a RAV4 EV, which they stopped manufacturing in 2014. They made it along side Tesla in the same plant that now makes Model Ys.



@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Shekelphile | Parent

Prius prime and rav4 prime are a thing.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dzhiurgis | Parent

You can compare Tesla to Hyundai. I was leaning towards Hyundai or a Kia last month, mainly because of Tesla stigma here.

After comparing price (Hyundai/Kia 10% more) and features (lol) Tesla is easily a winner. Sure it's not for everyone, but driving traditional car feels weird now. Car without an app or phone key just feels unbelievable.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by _hypx | Parent

Because there is very little point in making a battery powered car. Toyota was told the same thing but with diesel cars. In reality, all those went too far with diesel cars made a mistake. The story will repeat itself with battery cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by hnav | Parent

but Toyota sells more cars in a year than Tesla has in the past decade? And no, if they made an EV it probably wouldn't be selling like hotcakes, because an EV is largely an irrational choice for most people (looking at you, guys chilling in your cars on top of the Target in Laurel Heights in SF, waiting for that 80% in 30 minutes) and Toyota isn't good at making something super desirable. All that aside, most workhorses running around today, shuttling passengers and food delivery seem to be old, clapped out Priuses. Can't argue with 45mpg and ultra low running costs, barring the occasional stolen catalytic converter.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ChatGTP | Parent

Toyota sells more cars in a year than Tesla has in the past decade?

Well they'd just be even more dominate if they sold a fully EV corolla without all the "tech" BS every Tesla comes with.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by newaccount74

Since other car makers are trying to cover the market by diversifying their model lineup, this is hardly surprising. I mean, just take BMW, despite seemingly not taking EVs seriously at first, they already have more different EV models to choose from than Tesla. So even if BMW would overtake Tesla in total EV sales, the Model Y would probably still get to keep the "best selling car" title...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by oittaa | Parent

So it's not a true scotsman?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by justrealist | Parent

I'm only counting the BMW i4, iX, i7, and i5, vs the Tesla S, 3, X, and Y.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the lineups seem comparable.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by croes | Parent

You are missing the combustion engine models. There many people that still prefer them over EV.

BMW group sold 588,138 units in 2023 and most weren't EV.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kemiller | Parent

Even if you total up all the models from other manufacturers, it still doesn't touch the model Y or model 3 for sheer volume. Add all 4 Tesla models up and it's a bloodbath. (This is in the markets people on HN probably care about, North America and Europe. China is another matter.)


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ummonk | Parent

Why would HN people not care about sales in China?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by croes | Parent

The BMW group sold 588,138 cars in 2023. Where is that a bloodbath?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Thlom | Parent

Norway is the most mature EV market in the world, and looking at 2022 numbers Tesla sold the most cars, but VW is not far behind. 21300 for Tesla (most model Y) vs 20183 for VW (most Id.4), of which the vast majority (like 90% or more) were EVs.

So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sixQuarks | Parent

I was wondering how HN was going to spin this. The problem with this argument is that the Model Y by itself outsold the entire BMW electric lineup combined. In fact, 4 times the entire combined amount.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fshbbdssbbgdd | Parent

This is goalpost-shifting from the title, which doesn't limit the comparison to electric cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by croes | Parent

Maybe because the typical BMW customer prefers combustion engines. Look at the overall sales not just EV


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fomine3 | Parent

It's better to just compare brand-to-brand EV sales, rather than per model. Only Tesla can sell same model so much. I wonder will people finally bored with too many same Tesla running on the road, and Tesla start expanding their lineup like Volkswagen, or people accept it like iPhone (have a dressing case like iPhone?).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ryantgtg | Parent

But if I take BMW, I see they currently have three all electric models on offer: iX, i7, i4.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by croes | Parent

Maybe because BMW customers still prefer combustion engines.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by robin_reala | Parent

...and the i5, iX3 and iX1.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dzhiurgis | Parent

Tesla is about to overtake BMW by car sales, not just EV

But you are quite right. Given Tesla's mission and recent discontinuation of X and S and in RHD markets it wouldn't be surprised if they eventually killed them altogether. Let the premium makers like BMW, MB, Lucid focus on a niche luxury markets; use Tesla's time to make cheaper EVs.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bushbaba | Parent

Would be a mistake. The luxury brand pulls in the economy car buyers. The plaid & x is a great marketing tool.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jillesvangurp | Parent

What sets Tesla apart right now is their manufacturing capability. They are out-competing everyone else right now on cost and scale. That's the difference between having really juicy margins on their cars produced large volume and the likes of BMW, Ford, and others actually selling EVs at a loss in comparatively tiny volumes. Every time Tesla lowers their pricing, everybody else takes a big hit.

And while Tesla takes the crown here, they aren't the only new kid on the block that is extremely successful in the EV market. The likes of BYD and other Chinese manufacturers aren't far behind and are following a similar strategy to Tesla. Cheap Chinese exports are going to do similar things to the car industry that the Japanese car industry did in the eighties. The likes of Toyota of course were part of that move and it decimated the rest of the industry. That looks like it might happen again. Except this time it's Chinese manufacturers leading here; and Tesla of course.

The game right now isn't producing more concept cars, quick and dirty ICE conversions, or yet another over priced premium SUV ev but actually tackling the less premium mass market segment. This is only possible after companies nail cost and efficiency. And most of them are nowhere close to doing that. Tesla is ramping up to start selling millions of more modestly priced cars. BYD is already shipping loads of those in China. They are ready now.

Toyota particularly is far behind. The only EVs they have in the market are actually made by BYD. These are Toyota in name only. It's a BYD with a Toyota sticker slapped on. Reason: until they replaced their CEO recently, they were stubbornly pursuing things like hybrids and hydrogen cars and miscalculating how long they had to make that work. EVs priced around 20-30K$ are going to be a big problem for Toyota. Most of their remaining ICE market is at or above that price point and EVs with lower cost of ownership and a lower price tag can do some serious damage to that market. That's why they are partnering with BYD while they are figuring that out.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by seanmcdirmid | Parent

Is Toyota BYD's JV partner in China? I think the BYD taxi I rode in was based off a Camry body, but it seems their JV partner is GAC, so it isn't clear how that came to be.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by caf | Parent

It's easy to say "it's hardly surprising" now, but if you'd predicted this 4 or 5 years ago, plenty of people would have been surprised.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by LewisVerstappen | Parent

If you spent 5 mins looking at the data, you'd realize you're completely wrong lol.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by danielmarkbruce

Half of it is the buying process.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mikeryan | Parent

You're being downvoted but I'm not sure you're entirely wrong.

I'm currently buying a Rivian Truck, pricing is straightforward and I could be buying a T-Shirt on a Shopify site. Simple, I know the price and the experience, while not always easy, has been straightforward.

My wife has suddenly needed a new car and leans towards a Mercedes or Audi EV and we're suddenly slammed back into going onto a lot and dealing with the normal car sales bullshit and it's a nuisance. Just test driving a car (which is a fairly significant thing for someone who's not driven an EV) is a high pressure situation.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by colordrops | Parent

Car dealers really have no leverage. You can walk out at any time up until signing the paperwork, and just go to another dealer.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jmcphers | Parent

I was in the EV market recently and managed to test drive an Audi E-Tron. I'll probably never forget how casually the salesman told me that they were marking them up $5K over MRSP and still had a 10 month waitlist. I walked out of there pretty quick. Who's putting up with this?!


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by paxys | Parent

100%. Automakers go on about the "dealership experience", but I have never hated my life more than when trying to by a car at a local dealership.

- Had a confirmed appointment but when I showed up I still had to wait 45 minutes.

- Salespeople were clueless about the features of the car they were trying to sell. I knew more after 30 minutes of online research and had to constantly call out their bullshit.

- The car I had reserved was somehow no longer available, and then they tried to upsell me on extras I didn't want.

- I wanted manufacturer financing but they told me that wouldn't be possible and I had to get theirs at a much higher rate. I again had to threaten to walk out to get the advertised rate.

- All the dealerships in the area had priced their vehicles at $10K over MSRP, and the extra was pure profit for them. Heck they were making significantly more money on the car than the manufacturer themselves, all because of a government mandated monopoly.

And all this was for a >$50K luxury vehicle.

Meanwhile a friend configured a Tesla online and it showed up at his doorstep a couple weeks later, with the exact advertised price, financing and selections.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Sohcahtoa82 | Parent

I've heard it's even worse if you want to buy an EV.

Dealerships make half their money from the service department. EV's require very little service. So they don't want to sell and EV, and it shows.

Go to a Ford dealer and try to buy a Mustang Mach-E and they'll try really hard to convince you to buy an ICE Mustang.

The worst dealership experience I ever had was when I was buying my first car back in 2003. I was 21 at the time, and I just wanted something reliable and efficient that I could carry friends in. I told sales people that it must have 4 doors, A/C, and under $10K. And one of them tries to sell me a Pontiac Sunfire convertible for $12K. I re-iterated what I was looking for. Reliable, efficient, 4-door, A/C, under $10K. He showed me an $13K Mustang. I thanked him for wasting my time and left.

Tesla makes is so damn easy. I had a similar experience as your friend. I spent 30 seconds minutes choosing the configuration (Model 3 Performance, blue, no FSD, black interior), filled out the online credit application, and a week later, picked up the car from the service center downtown. The delivery experience was just as simple. Just had to sign some final delivery paperwork and some DMV paperwork that was already printed and just needed a quick scan and signature. Less than 5 minutes, and the car was mine. I was blown away how fast it was. I literally said to the guy there, "That's it? The car is mine and I can drive away now?". I was incredulous.

Dealerships could easily make the experience this easy if they wanted, but no, they want to play games with you to fuck you over.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by crooked-v | Parent

I ended up looking at some cars late last year, and the worst part was one of the dealer salespeople trying to pull that ridiculous "my boss won't like the deal I'm about to offer so why don't we talk outside" bullshit on me.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fomine3 | Parent

* In the US


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by alkonaut | Parent

worlds best selling car. Remember that the Tesla buying process is known as the "car buying process" since forever, outside the US, at least in the kind of countries where people buy expensive cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mft_ | Parent

I don't understand what you wrote. Are you saying that outside the US, every manufacturer offers low-friction online sales, with no need to visit a dealer?

Because I don't think that's entirely true...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by danielmarkbruce | Parent

This is wrong. I grew up in Australia and the dealership model is the same there as the US. I don't know what countries specifically you are talking about, but the idea that you could easily buy a car online in the configuration you want for a standard price since forever is clearly wrong.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mikeryan

One thing that EV's have an advantage of is the reduced footprint of their drivetrain. The primary bulk of an EV is the massive battery that usually spans the bottom of the car opening up space in the interior or the ubiquitous EV "frunk" this makes for a more spacious interior and the Y takes advantage of this well.

That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings.

I can't really make up my mind on whether the fact that the model Y is the "best selling model of car" is something to hang your hat on these days. It's a great metric, sure, but it's been in a somewhat limited market. On it's face I can see it's appeal - size, space, EV, extra seating - its NOT A MINIVAN. But it seems like a fairly easy moat to breach. One thing about the Corolla was it's build quality was top notch it was a solid, reliable car and it seems more and more lately this isn't a hallmark of Tesla. I wouldn't be surprised for the model Y to keep the mantle of "best selling model" - particularly because of Tesla's lead in its ability to manufacture electric cars and the surface appeal of the model Y - but I wouldn't be surprised if it lost this lead as well.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nine_k | Parent

This is reasonable. OTOH a really mass-produced car means that its production becomes optimized, quirks eventually fixed, rough edges polished, etc. With model Y, Tesla has a chance to polish the design and the production process and make the car reliable and of stable quality.

They of course can squander that chance, but they never had such a chance before at all, to my mind.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by viraptor | Parent

It's not a huge difference to other manufacturers - the idea of putting different things on a common chassis and iterating that one slowly was happening for a while. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by resolutebat | Parent

If you're in the market, go for a couple of test drives. The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on, while Teslas are designed from ground up as EVs and it shows throughout in ways big and small. We were originally leaning towards getting a Polestar, but the difference between driving one and a Tesla is night and day.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by tallytarik | Parent

Out of curiosity, what did you prefer about the Tesla over the Polestar?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bdcravens | Parent

The eGMP platform options from Hyundai (Hyundia Ioniq 5 and 6, Kia EV6, Genesis GV60) were also built in a dedicated manner.

While I have an EV6 (and my wife an ID.4), if I was on the market now, there's a ton of low-mileage Model 3 and Y out there, and the prices have come down significantly.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bushbaba | Parent

Have you driven an id4? Similar to Tesla the id platform was built for EVs.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by princevegeta89 | Parent

Off topic, but Musk v2.0 after the pandemic has been acting as a madman, and making pricing changes all over the board. We booked a Y, but the problem is they removed the $100 per month EAP subscription which could be a real beater for using it in an on-demand basis. Hopefully it comes back.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fnord77 | Parent

The Kia EV6 is a ground up EV and is better in every way than the Model Y


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by tapoxi | Parent

I drive an ID4 after looking at the Model Y. It's a ground up EV and a solid competitor. As a family crossover it's great. The software is pretty dumb but that's mostly avoided thanks to wireless Android Auto and CarPlay.

What won me over: Rear window was easier to see through, the above mentioned Carplay/AA support, not a fan of Tesla's extreme minimalism extending to things like air vents, brand tainted by Musk.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by anovikov | Parent

Sadly, in countries where no Tesla dealerships exist, it's next to impossible to buy unless you have truly unlimited budget. Model Y is in the same effective price range as Bentley: pay $100K in cash then pay $20K for each service or repair (because car has to be shipped 500 miles away on a boat and serviced there, takes 2 months and $20K). And you keep driving your Bentley in the meantime :)

That's situation here in Cyprus, thus in spite of a lot of people with money willing to buy, only 0.8% of cars sold are electric vs ~20% in poorer countries that do have Tesla dealerships. Because when Tesla is there, everyone else tries hard to sell their electrics too.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by KennyBlanken | Parent

>The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on,

Most automakers have long since stopped basing their electric cars on platforms designed for ICE cars that have have EV components badly squeezed into whatever space they can 'find'.

They've been making platforms designed specifically to include EV drivetrain components for a while, and many have shifted to EV-specific platforms.

There's also literally nothing wrong with platform-sharing, by the way; it's more efficient use of design, manufacturing, and service/support networks. The "it must be PURELY designed from the GROUND UP to be a EV" is largely marketing who-haa that hasn't been relevant for a while.

The Ford Lightning? It's largely based off the F150. Who cares? It's still a brilliant car that has been selling like hotcakes and will convert a TON of good-ol-boy types to driving an electric vehicle.

But here's a list of cars with EV-specific platforms:

* Audi e-tron
* BMW i-series
* Chevy Bolt and Bolt EUV, as well as their entire Ultium platform of cars, which I believe includes the HUMMER)
* Porsche Taycan
* Ford Mach-E
* Hyundai Ioniq 5 (and Kia equivalent)
* Lucid Air
* Rivian
* Mercedes EQS
* VW ID series
* Polestar

I'm probably forgetting some?

All have things Tesla doesn't: an extensive dealer network for sales and service, a healthy parts distribution channel, the build quality and reliability people expect from such an expensive car, no worries about bullshit like being banned from getting parts because the company thinks your vehicle shouldn't be on the road, transmission/motor units that are properly sealed so they can be driven in heavy rain and through puddles without issue, windows that spontaneously shatter, their cars randomly braking on the highway, self-driving systems that like to slam into the back of emergency vehicles on the shoulder...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by pleb_nz | Parent

Few other brands winning EV car of the year these days. Tesla isn't the only good choice as ground up EV any longer.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by victor106 | Parent

>the difference between driving one and a Tesla is night and day.

The one thing I absolutely hated about driving a Tesla was regenerative breaking. They should've made it optional.

I loved the Ford Mach-e GT.

Consumer Reports had it as the best EV for reliability.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by itsoktocry | Parent

>The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on, while Teslas are designed from ground up as EVs and it shows throughout in ways big and small.

This is not true, it's not 2017 anymore. Everyone is designing their EVs from "the ground up".

How is it that people can both think that Tesla will dominate because building EVs is simpler, but also that the legacy auto world can't figure out how to do it?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by tshaddox | Parent

>That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings.

My wife and I are in the market for a second car, after buying an ICE SUV at the beginning of the pandemic and having no car for 10 years before that (living in San Francisco).

There's a lot of options for a $40,000+ primary family car, but my impression is that there is a notable lack of options in the "second car" or "economy car" categories. We already have the ICE SUV for road trips, camping trips, IKEA trips, etc. We will probably need a second car very soon (moving from the Bay Area to LA and less WFH schedules).

Am I just supposed to get a Leaf or a Bolt? Plug in hybrids seem very cool to me but barely exist in the US (is this really too much cognitive load to figure out how fuel economy works?). Where's the $25,000 electric Corolla with 100 mile range?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ccozan | Parent

Dacia Spring come to my mind, but I am not sure is exported to US


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by labster | Parent

Toyota took a big bet on hydrogen power, so we're not going to see an electric Corolla until they finally give in. As for the price point, electric production is still scaling out. And consumers don't think they want vehicles with shorter range, even if that's all they need. First, the car has to sell.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mateo- | Parent

Mazda tried and failed, and decided to release it anyway -- see the MX-30 EV. 100 mile estimated range for $34k.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by PuffinBlue | Parent

Don't know if it's available in the US, but we're similar to you in wanting a lower priced second car and we're buying an MG4.

They're pretty reasonably priced here in the UK.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by hef19898 | Parent

Of all tue existing OEMs, Toyota propably botched the EV transition the most. Which actually is quite a surprise for me, to be honest.

Regarding cheap (-ish) EVs, you have Stelantis (Peugeot, Opel, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Chrysler). They sell a small hatchback, VW Polo sized, as an EV with, if memory serves well, a range of 300 km, for about 25k EUR in Germany. It is available as a Peugeot 208e, a Opel Corsa e and, more expensive and a cross-over SUV thingy, a Peugeot 2008e.

So it sure is possible. And a prime choice for a second car, in our case an EV for four, decent range and luggage space is simply out of budget for now. A smaller one, the classic second car, totally possible. But hey, you only replace cars if you have to, and now that is the big one. So no EV yet...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by speg | Parent

This is my dilemma as well. New LEAF is 40+K CAD. I think I'll try and find a used 2018 or newer for $20K and convince myself the battery will last.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dublinben | Parent

An electric motorcycle might suit you well as a second vehicle. There's tons of them in that price range. It would help with horrible LA traffic as well.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by buffington | Parent

I always considered our Model 3 as a second car because we mostly just drove it for local errands and commuting, and I assumed it just didn't have the range to do more.

We recently decided to use for a 2000+ mile road trip instead of using our ICE minivan, and I was blown away with how well the Tesla did as a long road trip vehicle.

We had no range anxiety because of the Super Charger network, and stopping to charge for 45 minutes after driving for 3 hours was far more enjoyable than anticipated.

Where it really did well was also surprising. Have you ever been going up a slight grade on a long highway stretch and find yourself needing to pass a slower vehicle? Most cars I've owned, when already going 65+, take a bit of time to pass a truck going up a hill. Even my 400HP+ modified Subaru STI takes its time as it needs to build turbo pressure and RPMs before it'll get fast enough to comfortably pass up hill.

The Model 3 doesn't even know there's a hill. It'll go from 60 to 120 as fast as it goes from 0-60 like the hill doesn't exist. Fully loaded with 4 adults and their stuff too.

Combine the raw power the car has with the climate control, good sound, full glass roof, ample cargo space and legroom, and it's the best car I've ever used on a long trip, no question. It's just not sub-$40k (at least for most people - I bought mine for $35k from a family member).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by elif | Parent

What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021.

I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.

A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Dalewyn | Parent

Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car.

Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by throwaway2037 | Parent

  I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.
Wah. That is crazy. The total cost of ownership for that car must be incredibly low. Think about what that means for the future of all auto mechanics. Will there be far fewer?

Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sroussey | Parent

It's funny because when a Tesla is given to a spouse it has lots of issues, but tech bros never seem to notice.

Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by adevopsguy | Parent

My in-laws also have a Nissan Leaf from 2013. It lost some amount of capacity but there has never been a problem with it. It is crazy.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by runeks | Parent

>I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.

How many miles/kilometers have you driven?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ZeroGravitas | Parent

There was some recent stats released on this from a German org now that the cars have been out for long enough to get good data. EVs did really well.

One surprise finding was that a major part of the EV faults were due to the 12v lead acid battery that some EVs (like Tesla) are now shipping lithium replacements for.



@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mateo- | Parent

as an alternative to Tesla, I recommend a Polestar 2. Somewhere between a 3 and a Y. Way better build quality (it's basically a Volvo, after all).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by TheSwordsman | Parent

I think the Supercharger network was a significant competitive advantage. With the news today that Ford will be adopting NACS in the near future for North American vehicles, I do think their EV options will start to become more compelling.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cperciva | Parent

I recently bought a Polestar 2. For people who aren't familiar with the brand, I describe it as "Volvo makes a Model 3".

Is it less high tech than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company. Is it better constructed than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cpach | Parent

Glad to hear those picodollars won't get converted to petrodollars ;-)


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dainiusse | Parent

I think I might give a try for MY (if its suspension got any better), but where I live there is no real place for servicing it and insurance costs 7x the price of a new leaf for example which is insand.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Fradow | Parent

From what I understood on a previous thread that talked about EV owners wanting to go back to gas cars, the main reason Tesla owners like their EVs more than other brand owners is not based on the actual vehicle, but due to ease of charging because of the supercharger network and other Tesla features to dispel range anxiety.

That in itself is a good reason to buy a Tesla right now (it may evolve in just a few years in the future): it's the one with the best charging experience. Considering how much hassle a bad charging experience can be, I imagine this has an influence on sales figures.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jononomo | Parent

My dream car is a minivan -- it is literally the most practical kind of vehicle I can think of, so that is what I fantasize about getting. Why are you so impressed that the model Y is not a minivan?

Wouldn't any car just be better if it were a minivan?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by yurishimo | Parent

In case you weren't aware already, the next-gen VW "bus" will start sales in the US next summer/fall. I expect other car manufacturers will begin sales of their minivan EV replacements around that time as well.

Unfortunately for VW, they are trying to cash in on the "cool" factor and nostalgia for the vintages buses and the vehicle is outrageously expensive. For $60k, I don't features in addition to gimmicks and the backseat is pretty tight. Not to mention the interior tech and controls for this first generation of VW ev's is comically bad.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kjksf | Parent

The talking point about Tesla reliability is outdated.

Model 3 was one of the most reliable cars in Germany in 2022.

"Germany's ADAC, which is the largest automobile club in Europe, published the results of its latest reliability study, which analyzes vehicle breakdowns and their causes in 2022, and the Tesla Model 3 ranked at the top of the chart."



@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by cjrp | Parent

I'd be interested in how many times each car had to be seen by the manufacturer, rather than full breakdowns (i.e. at the side of the road, can't continue the journey). EVs should be much more reliable in terms of full breakdowns, but with all of the complex systems I've seen more small things go wrong.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by 93po | Parent

Tesla reliability is also often conflated with "build quality", and the sources for Tesla's poor build quality differ vastly, but a not-insignificant source of it wasn't objective information but rather surveys. Surveys that specifically ask "How does build quality compare to expectations". Which isn't a fair question because people hold different expectations for Teslas than other cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Randomizer42 | Parent

I will never buy a T$LA product. Garbage products, turd of a CEO.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by CalRobert | Parent

What's wrong with minivans? I always loved having the ability to haul tons of stuff or people depending on the need.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by D13Fd | Parent

Agreed. I would love a good electric minivan (e.g. an electric Honda Odyssey). There are supposed to be a few coming down the pike but I had to buy a cheap used internal combustion one for now.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by 3vidence | Parent

In the market for a car here in Canada.

Really loved the idea of an electric car / plug in hybrid but it feels like EVs are just not adequately designed for Canada.

The main issues are (A) not enough charging infrastructure (fixable) and (B) poor battery performance in cold weather.

I think the cold weather thing could be fixable but from my perspective it seems like EVs are designed with California in mind so there seems to be little incentive to fix those issues.

Additionally Canada wants all new cars to be EVs by somewhere around 2030 but it seems like a not very well thought out plan.

Personally I ended up going with a standard hybrid.

- Fantastic mileage in the city.

- Good cold weather performance.

- Highest reliability by consumers reports and other publications.

- No range anxiety.

- Battery lasts a very long time since it is used less and stays at a medium charge.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bryanlarsen | Parent

We went for a Model Y. The heat pump is way more efficient in the winter than resistive heating. Combine that with starting out at room temperature because it's garaged, and we see little winter range loss.

We never have charging issues, and we've gone to rural Saskatchewan, tourist Quebec and all parts in between. The trans-Canada has great supercharger coverage, rural Saskatchewan has welders you can unplug and tourist Quebec has chargers at the hotels.

I bet our battery lasts longer than yours. 99% of driving is local, we plug in at 50% and charge to 80%, which is a lot easier on a big battery like ours than the small battery you have. Even on road trips it basically stays between 20 and 80.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by buffington | Parent

I own a Model 3, and one thing I didn't fully appreciate until a recent 2000+ mile roadtrip is how good the Tesla Super Charger network is. Even in remote parts of Nevada we were always within range of a Super Charger. Using the onboard nav system made that even better, since it's aware of how busy a station is, or if the station is even functional, and would route accordingly.

I don't know much about other charging networks, but I've used non-Tesla chargers a handful of times over the past two years, and every time, it was a poor experience. They've been slow, some have stopped working a few minutes into a charge, or don't work at all. In two separate cases the chargers I drove to didn't actually exist, despite being directed to them by those networks' apps. In one case, they weren't built yet, and in another, the chargers weren't even properly mounted to the ground and getting blown around by the wind and leaning over as far as the underground cables would allow.

Prior to my roadtrip the charging network wouldn't have been much of a selling point for me since I usually charge at home. But after? I think it's far more important than I realized.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Animats

It's encouraging to note that most model Y cars ("standard range") use lithium iron phosphate batteries, which have far fewer problem with fires than lithium iron. Energy density per kilogram of lithium iron phosphate batteries is lower, but has been improving slowly. Tesla had to buy the technology from BYD.

I suspect that in a few years, batteries capable of thermal runaway will be prohibited. They're becoming unnecessary.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nimish | Parent

LFP can have similar density since you don't need the same amount of protection in the pack. It's a system level win.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by dzhiurgis | Parent

You're mixing up LFP (LiFePo4 aka Lithium Ferrum(Iron) Phosphate) with NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt). NMC are lighter and more firey.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by kcb | Parent

I'd imagine most Model Ys are LRs. The standard range wasn't even listed normally until like a month ago.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by xxs | Parent

Iron ion and phosphate are the same LiFePO4.
Compared to cobalt ones it has lower nominal voltage, and higher recharge cycles, less energy density as well.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by simondotau | Parent

We've been using liquid hydrocarbons capable of thermal runaway (petrol/gasoline) for a century despite the existence of liquid hydrocarbons which are more resistant to ignition (diesel).

LFP chemistry will certainly become increasingly dominant over the next few years, particularly now that key patents have expired. But it doesn't supplant all usages of NMC yet, and isn't likely to for some time.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by 411111111111111 | Parent

>Tesla had to buy the technology from BYD.

I'd be terrified of driving a car with byd battery tech. There are countless videos of their cars just spontaneously combusting while driving on a road, sitting on a parking lot without charging etc...

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jancsika

Translation: luxury vehicles are the future of car sales.

Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.

Plus you can go and find an older Corolla with 100k+ miles on it and pay perhaps $5k cash for it, then drive it for another 50-100k.

I don't see people in the service industry picking up a used Tesla, now or in the foreseeable future.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Sohcahtoa82 | Parent

>I don't see people in the service industry picking up a used Tesla, now or in the foreseeable future.

Purchase price, you've already touched on. You can't even get a USED Tesla for under $20K.

The second problem is charging. Apartments generally have a lack of EV chargers.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by paganel | Parent

>Apartments generally have a lack of EV chargers.

That's the trick, people living in apartments are not supposed to own and operate their own cars going forward.

As a live in an apartment myself I wasn't aware of that fact at the beginning, I kept asking myself: "how am I supposed to charge my car if I'm living on the 8th floor?". Turns out I was looking at the whole thing through the wrong lenses.

What's really perverse about it (there's no better word to describe it) is that us, people living in apartments, do currently have a smaller carbon footprint compared to people living in actual houses, and yet we are the ones being punished as a result of measures which are meant to improve our global carbon footprint. So the solution for me, if I'd still want to own a personal car, would be to increase my carbon footprint by moving to an actual house on the ground, preferably in suburbia because cheaper (where there's also no proper public transportation to speak of).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by ourmandave | Parent

You can't even get a USED Tesla for under $20K.

And who wants to buy a used Tesla (or any EV) even if the price was competitive?

The range degrades with the battery and replacing it costs more than the car is worth.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by rcMgD2BwE72F | Parent

>The second problem is charging. Apartments generally have a lack of EV chargers.

Intuitively, I guess most people would certainly be fine charging once a week for half an hour when going out (restaurant, shopping or else), given the average distance driven per week.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sib | Parent

>>Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.

Which makes it that much more impressive that the Model Y outsells the Corolla...


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by bushbaba | Parent

Model y can get 10k in rebates depending on income. California would wave sales tax, give local rebates, and federal 7.5k rebate.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by peoplefromibiza | Parent

there are no State issued EV bonuses/tax rebates for the Corolla.

if there were, Corolla would outsell Tesla Y by a large margin.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by resolutebat | Parent

>Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.

Which only makes this even more remarkable. What's going to happen when the Tesla 2 comes out and sells for the same price as a Corolla?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fshbbdssbbgdd | Parent

I've been waiting 10 years for this, gave up a while ago.

Nobody wants to sell electric cars for cheap, why throw away the margins you can get by selling them for more?

I don't see a great opportunity for them to lower costs more on a cheaper model. Tesla already went through the exercise of making the cheaper version and people are paying premium prices for it anyway.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by simion314 | Parent

>Translation: luxury vehicles are the future of car sales.

Not in Europe, I was surprised to read that Dacia Sandero a model designed to be cheap was the best seller this year(in Europe), they also hit record sales last year. There are lot of people that do not have the moneyor do not want to spend it on luxury. (and btw before someone points the bad safety rating of Dacia, most of the bad score is because of missing of modern active safety stuff)



@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by riffraff | Parent

I believe it is true in Europe too, it just happens with economic growth.

I.e. where people would buy a lot more utility cars before, they now buy more expensive bigger cars even if they don't need them. Those buying bigger cars are now buying SUVs.

Dacia ate the market of economy cars of FIAT, SEAT, and Pegeot, while those tried to move up market.

That's also why Dacia has the Duster ("SUV for poors") in their line up.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mplewis | Parent

Teslas aren't luxury vehicles, even if they're sold at a luxury price point.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by asd88 | Parent

The base Model Y is not even at a luxury price point after tax credits.

But yeah, Tesla's interior build quality is not really comparable with other luxury cars.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by nixarn | Parent

Although the purchase price is higher, lifetime is not much different.


And the Model Y is cheaper than the Toyota Rav4 which is in the same category. So cheaper purchase price, and no annual oil changes, cheap miles (at least over in Finland where gas is 2e/liter, 8.14usd/gallon and electricity is around 10euro cents/kwh).


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by pleb_nz | Parent

RAV4s are approx 40k where I come from, while Tesla is 70k+. Are you teslas cheap or RaVs overpriced?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by moonchrome | Parent

Where are you getting these prices ? RAV4 is a lower end of price for the category here, even Model 3 is more expensive.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sundvor | Parent

It might be "2 times as expensive" up front, but not for the TCO.

People really need to remember maintenance costs over the ownership period.

In a Tesla all you're really paying for is tyre rotation / alignment / rubber replacements, and air filters. Plus the electricity, in place of fuel. The savings add up significantly.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by londons_explore | Parent

People who care about price don't pay $3k/year on car servicing at a car dealer... They buy some reliable model and pay $50 for an oil change every other year.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by x3874 | Parent

Is this myth still lingering on? You have to pay a lot more on maintenace for Teslas: brake pads, shattered roofs, fogging taillights, broken control arms, drive units, worn out seats, MCUs, tail bumpers lost in the rain, ... that list goes on.

Provided Tesla can deliver spare parts, which they frequently can't for months, which is a story in itself (hint: having to support x iterations may work for SW, but not for cars that are on the road for 10+ years)


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by peoplefromibiza | Parent

>In a Tesla all you're really paying for is tyre rotation

I change my tires every 20,000-25,000 kms

for me it means every 3 years

my car runs on LPG, which is half the price of gas

Never ever done any particular kind of maintenance in over 10 years.

You can buy 6-7 brand new "my cars" with the money spent on a Tesla.

Yes, it's a cheap car, I chose it exactly because it's cheap and robust, I use it in a city, I park it on the road, there's no need for a >45k car, I would argue it's borderline stupid to buy a very expensive EV to drive it in a city.

EVs are expensive by default, their TCO might be lower in perfect ideal scenarios, until you run into an issue, most of the cost is due the complexity, non-EV cars are much much much dumber and simpler.

You can't independently fix an EV, there's no way.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by itsoktocry | Parent

>People really need to remember maintenance costs over the ownership period.

What people really need to do is the actual calculation, instead of saying things like "the Tesla will make it up over its lifespan". Will it, really?

The difference between a model Y and Corolla is, what, $10k-15k? That is a huge difference to make up. Most of the maintenance requirements a ICE has are required by an EV, too (less oil changes). Parts are way more expensive on the Tesla than the Toyota.

Oh, and do you think that governments are going to just let EVs operate on subsidized electricity forever? No, they will directly tax it in the future. Meanwhile, gasoline prices could decrease over time as the world transitions to greener sources. After all, have to pump the oil (increase supply) while it has value.

TL;DR People who buy a Tesla to "save money" are likely in for a shock.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by prmoustache | Parent

I think one of the reason is most non uber wealthy people are putting a hold on car purchases right now until EV prices go down.

We are in a huge transition phase, with lots of inflation everywhere. For most people EV are still too expensive or inconvenient [1] and they don't want to buy a new ICE car or start a 5y leasing on a car they may soon not be allowed to use wherever they want.[2] Also they fear they won't be able to resell it. It makes more sense to keep that old, already well depreciated old car or buy a fairly recent second hand ICE, hybrid or EV that has already depreciated a lot.

My only non muscular vehicle right now is an ICE motorbike. There is no way I can afford an EV car and I don't want to deal with an ICE car I won't be able to sell for more than scrap value when EV prices will go down.

[1] if don't have parking space at home.

[2] many big cities have started banning diesel cars in center, will probably do the same for gasoline soon. ICE cars will soon become unsellable.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by raydev | Parent

>most non uber wealthy people are putting a hold on car purchases right now until EV prices go down

I've been wondering how many others are frustrated like I am.

I've hit the 10 year mark on my current ICE vehicle, and I sorta assumed EVs would be a lot more common and cheaper now. Even the small vehicles are being sold for luxury prices, and the 7-seaters (which I'm looking at) are priced in the high-end-yesteryear-sports-car tier.

I'm seriously considering just buying a Tahoe or Telluride and waiting another 10 years for an EV.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by mypalmike | Parent

Where I live, $5k for a used Corolla gets you something with over 200k miles and which needs another $5k (at least) to address deferred maintenance.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by 93po | Parent

And leaves you with a car now with $7k.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by raincom

Before Covid, one could buy Toyota vehicles 6% under MSRP. Today, Toyota dealers want $5K mark up fees, on top of MSRP, then all extra garbage, with 3 months wait time. If your family already owns an ICE vehicle, just buy Tesla Model Y as a second vehicle. These car companies and their dealers just try to screw customers with all hidden garbage.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jbm | Parent

The wait time for a Sienna in Canada reached 5 years at one point this year. I've never been so flabbergasted in my life.

I am driving a 2016 minivan and no one I trust is offering an electric model yet. I hope Toyota wakes up, they have completely lost the plot.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by timsneath | Parent

Conversely, we just ordered a Tesla Model Y yesterday for delivery within a month. Today they reached out to us to see if we'd like to take one from inventory this week. I literally paid the deposit using Apple Pay with TouchID on my MacBook. It was scary how easy it was.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by wodenokoto

Any speculation why model Y is selling better than model 3?


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by wilg | Parent

Easy, crossovers are just more popular. Slightly bigger and a hatchback. Much more practical.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by crooked-v | Parent

Also, ubiquitous rear cameras make the longstanding rear visibility issues of hatchbacks basically nonexistent.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by photonbeam | Parent

The trunk opening on the 3 is very small compared to Y


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by qwerpy | Parent

The moment you own both a 3 and one of those enormous SUV-like baby strollers, you get rid of the 3 and get something else. A Y if you liked your 3, or probably a van if not.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by slaw | Parent

Model 3 interior is very small.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by what-the-grump | Parent

Because the market for a sedan is drying up. People are looking for SUVs and people like me who we're looking for an SUV in 2023, found themselves staring at 40-44k price tag for the same thing we got 4 years ago, for 31-33k. So after EV tax credit a model y is literally a no brainer.

It's so ridiculous that I didn't bother looking at Tesla at all in 2022. You are going to get out of your CRV, CX5, RAV4, Highlander, and straight into a model Y and it will feel like you went from a flip phone to an iPhone.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by argonaut | Parent

Because Tesla is pushing the Model Y with their pricing (presumably because margins are better). The Model Y Long Range is $500 cheaper than the Model 3 Long Range after tax credits. The base Model Y is only $3.5k more expensive than the Model 3, after tax credits.

For many months you couldn't even order a Model 3 Long Range, your only option was a Model Y Long Range.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by caf | Parent

Sales are only accounted on delivery, that is when title is transferred.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sytelus | Parent

How chip shortage still a thing? It's not that car chips are 5nm even. Toyota should be able to put its weight just like Tesla does.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Goz3rr | Parent

From what I remember, basically everything that isn't a phone or computer is on older process nodes that once were cutting edge. Some of these are so old that it doesn't make economic sense anymore to scale up capacity, or it might not even be possible anymore to easily do so.

As a result you have production lines that were reasonably well suited for demand pre-covid, now having to deal with everyone stocking up on way more parts than they need because they don't want to deal with shortages again.

@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Xenoamorphous

I'm really surprised about this. I live in the capital city of an European country (~50M people) and I don't think I've seen even one, maybe it's not sold here? I see a fair number of model 3 and a few S, though.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by smt88 | Parent

It's because Tesla has so few models. Every other manufacturer has an order of magnitude (or two orders) more models you can buy. Some brands have more EV models than Tesla does.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fragmede | Parent

Just counting them, sure, but do they really? Most Auto makers cover reach segment, sub-compact, compact, full-size, and SUV, and just vary the offering within that class. Eg the Honda Civic sub-compact comes in EX, EX-L, LX, Type-R, Sport, Touring, and more. But meanwhile the Model S comes in a plethora of combinations of battery sizes and motor configs. Tesla covers 4 segments, full-size, compact, SUV (X) and SUV (Y). Other automakers do cover more eg sports and truck, but there's the roadster and the Cybertruck to contend with. Point being, if you just consider segments and configuration s per-segment, I'm not convinced Tesla is that far behind.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by fernandotakai | Parent

i live in amsterdam and i see teslas literally every day.

hell, a guy parks his tesla in front of my house daily to use the public charger.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by Xenoamorphous | Parent

I was talking specifically about the model Y, I do see teslas around.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by sebzim4500 | Parent

There are a fair few of them in London, mainly model 3s I think.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by jlundberg | Parent

The Model Y looks a lot like the Model 3.

Took me maybe 50 cars of training to learn to recognise the difference when passing Teslas on the streets.. but now I finally do! :)


@ Sunday, May 28th 2023 by Xenoamorphous | Parent

This might be it! I didn't know they were so similar. I'll pay more attention.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by timbit42 | Parent

These days the batteries outlast the body with hundreds of thousands of miles.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by alkonaut | Parent

The biggest quality concern isn't that something will break but the quality of the support I get when it does. If the closest dealership+brand repair shop is two hours drive away and all the major brands have repairs 5 minutes drive away, then it's not competitive. The moat of the established brands is pretty big when it comes to the service network.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by tibbydudeza | Parent

True on parts availability - a friend bought a hot hatch from Peugeot - it was one of those performance models with a tweaked engine (higher rpm/camshafts) instead of the run of the mill ones.

So engine imploded and he waited months for a part that was on a ship somewhere - they eventually bought the car back from him.

Needless to say I never bought a French car.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by trabant00 | Parent

There's no away around it since we really have to move pollution out of the cities. Because that's what this is, not an overall environment benefit but managing pollution zones. Yes, all the people are paying for what few can afford, but again, there's no other alternative. The era of affordable driving in big cities is over. Only the rich will be able to, in the future. And the poor will be crammed in horrible public transport.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by i2cmaster | Parent

This. I'd happily buy a minimalist electric car (bonus if they can use/create off the shelf parts) but I'm not going to pay extra.

Then again my two cars and yacht are all used beaters.


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by InTheArena | Parent

This. I bought an early model 3, and a a slightly later MY. The Y is far better quality wise (but even the 3 is still a great car)


@ Friday, May 26th 2023 by chrisldgk | Parent

Also make it look like the GR Corolla. It's a great looking car.

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